SPEAKER_00 0:01

And welcome to the InfoTech Podcast. I'm your host, Jimmy Huber, and uh today we've got Matt Kinse on. Um we talked to a lot of MSP owners. Uh Matt's been a pretty good contact of mine. We were talking here a while back, prepping for this episode, and he's got a pretty unique background, um, including uh merging with two other companies and having lots of family in the business. So if you're wondering about uh how to do any of those things well, uh, this is the episode for you. So, Matt, I really appreciate you being on today.

SPEAKER_01 0:33

I'm glad to be here, Jimmy.

SPEAKER_00 0:35

Yeah, you bet. So I always try to start with you know how you guys got here, right? Um, everyone's got a unique story. So feel free to go back as far as you want, but why don't you share a little bit with our audience about um, you know, where you came from, how you started IT Fusion, and kind of what brought you to this point.

SPEAKER_01 0:55

Yeah, we uh uh so I worked in corporate IT for some very large companies. Uh, you know, um Alamo and National Car Rental, uh, you know, before Enterprise bought them. I was at Office Depot's corporate headquarters. Um, I not in IT, but I was in Kincos before FedEx bought them, uh, back coming out of college. And I was a regional computer services manager. So I was working in computers, but I wasn't, I was in the delivery side. So, you know, computer rentals, printing services, um, you know, Mac, mostly Mac, and what as well as some Windows in Houston. Uh, and that was in the greater Houston area. Um so in 2007, May 2007, yeah, so 19 years ago, last month, I left Office Depot to start um my entrepreneurial journey. And and that came about because of a mental toughness coach who's become a mentor of mine, a gentleman by the name of Steve Siebold. And you know, one of the things he said was, if you want to make more money, solve bigger problems. Uh and and I was also putting stuff into place at Office Depot that was saving them hundreds of thousands, millions of dollars a year. And I'm looking at a low six-figure income and going, this doesn't seem quite right. Like the value I'm producing for them is is is you know 50, 100 times what I'm making a year. And it just doesn't feel right. I've got all these restrictions, and so I left and went from a six-figure salary to zero overnight. And I took something that was very simple of trading time for money and decided to make it much more complex for a lot less money. Um and looking back on that, um it's interesting. People like, what would you have done differently when you started? I probably would have started with less money in the bank, which which sounds weird. Um, you know, but I I wasn't hungry at the beginning because I had to get out of that that corporate, and and that took a while. And it, you know, I don't live in regret, but like if I went back, I would probably say, like, if I'd had half the money, I would have been hungrier getting going.

SPEAKER_02 3:19

But those those first 10, 12 years, I was I was a lifestyle business.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

Okay, and I and I'm not cr if you run a lifestyle business out there, I'm not criticizing you at all. Okay, that's a choice that we make. But then around the time of the pandemic, actually it was right around the time of the pandemic, I was like, you know, I need to build value out of this. And what can I do? And so I started getting involved with some other people, and uh the company's name was MK Tech Group at that point. And then in about two years later, um, I've been a member of B I since 2008. And I I bring in a lot of business from B and I. And I was working yeah, networking group. I was working with other IT professionals who had ex who had expertise that I didn't have, and I got this idea of like, let's let's come together. And they were both solopreneurs, neither one of them had any employees, you know, they had contractors they used, people they partnered with on specific projects, but they were solopreneurs, and at that point we had a four-person team and we merged. Um, I don't call it an acquisition because it truly was a merger. Um, they brought the clients over, I brought clients over. Um, and since then we've been on I mean, we're we'll probably do six times this year what we did in 2020. Nice, good for you. Uh yeah, and and I'm okay with that, you know, I I and I feel good about it. We grew well the the IT fusion entity grew 53 percent last year. We're about 25 percent above uh May. We're closing out May, but we're gonna be 24, 25 percent above last year. So we're we're we've starting to become a substantial MSP, and now we're we've hit those numbers where they say we're in the that top 10 percent of MSPs. Um you know, we're in that we're in that first valley, um, where that first valley of death, you know, between one and two million, where I I talk to people, go they tell me a couple things. One is the second million is a lot easier than the first. Yeah, um, but then they say by the time you get to the second million, your business will look completely different.

SPEAKER_00 5:41

It has to. Yeah, you're you're not you're not uh scaling the same way as you did when you're at five years.

SPEAKER_01 5:47

What you did what you did to get you to a million, um some of it's transferable, but you have to learn new things. And you have to change. And so many people I've talked to, especially when you go look at one to five, and the people at five million go, so what's different about your business? And their typical response is everything.

SPEAKER_05 6:10

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 6:11

Everything. Like I'm in the same seat, that's it.

SPEAKER_00 6:14

Yeah. So how do you let me let me back up a little bit because you touched on a bunch of stuff there? So you basically merged with three other founders or or two other founders.

SPEAKER_01 6:24

Well, we had three. We it was four to begin with, one of them pulled out, which was a good thing. And that I I don't regret it. I have no ill will towards him. He pulled out after a while. It wasn't it it wasn't a good fit because he wanted to continue to run a lifestyle business.

SPEAKER_00 6:39

Sure. I don't see that.

SPEAKER_01 6:40

He didn't want to be.

SPEAKER_00 6:44

When you got a bunch of alphas or type A in the room, uh, how did you figure out you know roles and all that? Was just kind of working through that kind of stuff?

SPEAKER_01 6:52

Or well well, part of it was understanding that um I was the only one who had significant large company background. So, in terms of putting process together, in terms of figuring out what we're going to do, it made sense for me to do that. Um Wally, one of my other partners, he's a great business development person. And he brought in our first chunk of customers. Uh and but he also wants to get out of the business. Okay. So he's working on something else, and we're completely okay with that. You know, but he brought his clients in and um we appreciate everything he's done and still does, uh, but we wish him the best with what he's working on now, and and hopefully that takes off. He's he's developing a networking app. Um, Lorenzo brought in skill sets that were completely uh different from mine at uh in in depth. So he is he is uh really an expert in you know cabling, you know, low voltage work, fiber work, um, phone systems, I mean legacy phone systems as well as voiceover IP, security systems. Um so he really knows those things very well. And I I think everyone in the business, there's a part of it that they that they don't like. Well, Lorenzo likes the things that I really don't like doing. So that works out really well. Yeah, and and he's a he's a hard worker. And I I grew up in the Midwest, he grew up in Venezuela. Um, sounds like very different cultures, and it is very different cultures, but one thing they have in common is we believe in the value of hard work.

SPEAKER_00 8:30

Yeah, I'd say that that will get you far. So it sounds like you you all had kind of different skill sets, which one only complement each other, but are all very needed. Usually people, the the owner does it all, and then he has to hire people to hopefully fit those roles. And you guys are able to merge that and rental.

SPEAKER_01 8:47

Um now, I mean, I've had to, as the business has grown, I've had to change my role. You know, I just got back from a two and a half week trip to China where I did not take a single technical call. Um, I'm still the last escalation point for now. Um, you know, that's a that's an expensive hire to replace that last escalation point, but eventually I will not be the last escalation point. Uh, but I've been my role is shifted into business development um and and sales.

SPEAKER_00 9:19

Well, that's really cool. So you mentioned before, and I noticed on your website and I was prepping for our discovery call that you've got a couple of family members in the business too. Uh I'd have had, I think one at least one other uh guest that had a similar situation, he would joke that like his daughter didn't call him dad. It was, you know, they're on a first name basis at the office.

SPEAKER_01 9:39

So that's my that's me and my son.

SPEAKER_00 9:42

Yep. Okay, so explain how that works because I mean I I love my family, but I could never work with them. Like we would clash, it's it's way too many similar personalities. So to make that work is is admirable.

SPEAKER_01 9:53

Look, I love my daughter. Um, I would uh my daughter and I would not work well together, but my son and I worked well together. My wife and I work well together. I mean, my wife and I do a lot of things together. We're in scouting together, um, we're in B and I together, um, we're in Toastmasters together. Uh, you know, so we do a lot together and we we're okay with that. Um, we've worked together multiple times over the years uh in multiple endeavors. So that works really well. She's she's a she's a C S personality. I'm a C D. So we both like things um we we both think like things orderly. Um she doesn't like change as much as I do. Yeah, okay. She doesn't like change as much as I do. Um you know, I'm I I love change. She's like, you gotta prove to me that we have a good reason to change. And that's fine. Um, I thought I'd turn that off. Okay. So those are things that we do together and work through. So I'm I'm really happy about that. Um you know it took longer for my son and I to figure out how to work together. Um he started part-time. And uh I think every senior, every good engineer has this when someone new comes in, like a month later, they're like, I thought this was supposed to make my work easier. And nobody wants to talk to the new guy. Um and so at first no one wanted to talk to him. Now they don't even want to talk to me, they want to talk to him, right? You know, um, so that's a good thing. But when we've as we've built the team, we still get some of that. Oh, well, I only want Brandon to take care of this. Well, yeah, that doesn't work. You know, you might wait a week if you want Brandon to take care of it. So why don't you let one of the other guys try see if they can figure it out?

SPEAKER_00 11:48

Yeah, it's interesting the dynamics of you kind of get tribal knowledge and and that kind of gets you know entrenched in certain key people. Yeah. Um, but yeah, that that's really cool that you can merge uh a bunch of different facets with family and still make it work on the business side because just like any other team, families are all different and they've got different talents and everything. And yeah, I mean, what do you talk about at Thanksgiving? I mean, if you're working and living with each other, like we try not to talk about work.

SPEAKER_01 12:20

Um, you know, my my daughter doesn't want us to talk about work, so that helps. Um, you know, uh, but she's got two boys, they're they're um almost nine and eleven, so that provides a lot of fodder for conversation. Um uh we we try not to talk about politics at family events, um just as a common, you know. But uh my daughter gets what we do and she understands how important it is, but she works with kids. She you know, she works with developmentally challenged uh young elementary school kids trying to help them learn life skills, and that fulfills her in a different way.

SPEAKER_00 13:08

Sure. No, that's cool. It seems like you guys are are playing to your strengths, you know, across the board. Trying to that at shows.

SPEAKER_01 13:15

Yeah. But but sometimes you have to learn it. I I remember uh I'm in a CEO accountability group, and one time I'm like, yeah, I'm just I'm not good at sales. And they're like, no, no, no, you're great at sales, you're terrible at marketing.

SPEAKER_00 13:26

Yeah, yeah. I think I think that relates. So that that's a good segue into kind of how to sell and market in the managed service space. Because I feel like most companies have really good engineers, they're good with fixing problems, and like once they get clients, they can keep them and and grow that way. But yeah, we're we're notoriously terrible about talking about ourselves, which is basically what marketing is. So, what have you figured out along the way to kind of connect with people that don't know who you are and engage them in a meaningful way?

SPEAKER_01 13:58

Yeah, well, I mean, our business has been built on referrals. Um, you know, I can look through my customer list and I have one, maybe two significant clients that came from advertising or something other than a referral from one of my networking groups or from a customer. So that helps. That puts you a long way down. But I remember something, I was at a technology marketing toolkit event, and and Robin, Robin said something that I just it's always stuck with me. She goes, When a client signs you, the only thing they know is how good you are at marketing. That's the only thing they really know is that you're good at marketing. And I think the the the trick in marketing and sales is speaking to your customer in a way that's meaningful to them, that um acknowledges their expertise in their field and presents yourself as a way to reduce risk to the organization, um, to help the business owner sleep better at night. You know, there's not a lot of MSPs calling on public companies. Uh, you know, we're mostly talking to a business owner, and a lot of times we're talking to the founder. You know, it's their sweat and tears, blood, sweat and tears. It's it's their baby in some ways, their business baby. And uh I think you have to acknowledge that that they're as especially for us, they're walking that same path you are. And they have the same challenges you do. Um, it's just that you've got a solution for some of their challenges.

SPEAKER_00 15:48

Yeah. I think there's a lot of trust that's needed in our industry. And a lot of people, I think, try to skip certain steps in the process because they just want the sale. They they just want to get there and move on. And it's it's more of a I think a slow burn is you know, connecting with people, building rapport, actually showing you care without trying to get something immediately because people see through that again, you know, anyway. And you know, building the relationship first.

SPEAKER_01 16:13

Yeah. So like, you know, we do an assessment. I know a lot of IT companies do an assessment. Um, you know, we do a security assessment, and you know, it's it's a 26-minute call and then a 26 or 46 minute call a week later, and when we're we try to point things out that um looking at the system the way a cyber criminal looks at your system. So that's what we try to do. Um, you know, but then when we're presenting that, like one of the things I'll I'll tell them, you know, and I had this discussion with one of my partners, he's like, Well, we're not charging for that. I'm like, No, we're not. And he goes, Well, what if what if they take and give that report to their IT guy? I said, they're in better position. Okay. I said, I'm gonna ask them, are you aware of these issues? You know, and and why didn't your current IT person make you aware of these issues? I said, but if the worst thing they do is turn around and and go to your company and say, Jimmy, fix this, fix all the stuff that Matt found you're not doing, they're in a better position. He goes, I don't like that. I said, I don't like it, but I accept it and and I'm okay with it. You know, because they're in a better position. And one of the things I do is, you know, when I I'll have an appointment set up, but I'll tell them, hey, if I find something really concerning, I know we've got an appointment next Tuesday, but if I find something really concerning when I get the report back, I'm gonna call you immediately. You know, and I always try to point out things that they can do at no cost or or very low cost.

unknown 17:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:42

Like, hey, this is a configuration issue. All you need to do is open a ticket and tell them to fix this configuration. They should have, they they probably should have done it already, but you just tell them you need this fixed, and that doesn't cost you anything.

SPEAKER_00 17:55

Well, and you're planting seeds too, even if they're not like hiring you right away, yeah, in the back of your mind, they're thinking, well, hey, we should have caught this beforehand. He's willing to like give me some answers here without you know getting paid or whatnot. You're you're adding collateral to that relationship.

SPEAKER_01 18:11

I feel like without making them feel that they're bad.

SPEAKER_00 18:16

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 18:16

That they're negligent. It's like, you know, if if it is something negligent, I'll point it out in a way, you know, but usually it's not a negligence thing. Yeah, it's you know, and I'll point out, I'm like, hey, I just had one a couple weeks ago. I go look, I said, yeah, we got some problems here. But I said, but they're patching. I said, I normally don't see patching that that's this good. They're doing a really good job patching for you.

SPEAKER_05 18:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:41

Um, and so I'm gonna tell them what they're doing well, as well as the gaps that they have, because that just it builds credibility, it builds trust. Um, you know, Bob Berg, the Canadian networking guy, says, all things being equal, people will do business with those that they know like and trust. And trust is the most important.

SPEAKER_00 19:00

Um well, you're appealing to the emotions. I mean, we we picked up a client a while back and you know, bidding against other competitors, similar offerings or whatnot, trying to differentiate. And ultimately it came down to the fact that they liked us better. Like it's like we felt like you cared more, like there was a it was an emotional connection piece. Now, hopefully, during onboarding will show them, you know, we are better and like there are a lot of things, but you can't get through to that. And people don't buy on logic. They they might reinforce what they're feeling with some logic, but it's all emotions.

SPEAKER_01 19:33

I mean, uh, we just picked up a good, it's a 23-person law firm, and one of the we were significantly higher than the other finalist. Um, and one thing that the consultant who is working with the owner told us was um, I told the owner that if something went wrong, I wanted you in my corner. That was the decision. I wanted something, if something went wrong, I want you in my corner.

SPEAKER_00 20:03

Yeah, he he saw the value and made the the price not really matter as much. And I think that connecting those two pieces, I mean, that's yeah, I guess it's marketing, but it's that that's the biggest thing, at least in our sales cycle, is it's never we're usually one of the more expensive uh almost.

SPEAKER_01 20:20

And the marketing, I think it's it's telling stories. I mean, there's the old adage, you know, facts sell, stories tell. Yeah, stories sell, facts tell, stories sell. And you've got to talk about similar things you've seen and what you've done. Um, but marketing is it's a different beast and it's it's having good systems for follow-up. That's a big part of it. You know, you you I don't know how an MSP operates without a PSA, without an RMM, and without a CRM to follow up with leads and make sure you don't lose track of leads.

SPEAKER_00 20:56

Well, they they don't operate well, I'll tell you that. I mean, we're we're all a bunch of humans, and you know, AI tools uh can help in some ways. I mean, that's the the buzzword these days, right? But I think a lot of times people will abdicate and and they won't uh realize that they're just tools. You have to have a process in place to be enhanced. You can't just try to replace it and oh, everything's gonna be fine. So um what other trends do you see, I guess, these days? Like 2026, it seems to be all AI. There's some cybersecurity concerns, I think, around that. What are you seeing from your your customers? What are you recommending? What are what are the things that are top of mind?

SPEAKER_01 21:35

Also, what I what I'm seeing is an increasing awareness around cybersecurity. Um, you know, conversations that we were out on the edge five years ago trying to beat the drum. The customers are coming to us with those conversations now.

SPEAKER_04 21:50

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 21:50

You know, so that's it. I and I don't I uh we just picked up a law firm, and you know, something I said during a networking presentation. She went, oh my God, we're exposed. You know, we're we're exposed because she was just like, that's us. And I wasn't talking about her, but she's like, that's us. We we do the same thing. So there's a there's an increasing awareness for cybersecurity. But because of the, especially over, I'd say the last six years, the increase in cybersecurity, we're gonna start seeing downward pressure on pricing. Um, we're already starting to see it a little bit. Um, you know, it's getting more commoditized. Um and that means you, as an MSP owner, we've got to figure out where the value is. And the value is in risk management, the value is in compliance. That's where the value is. So I think if you're an MSP owner out there and you're not looking into compliance, um, and I'm and I uh even cyber insurance compliance, um, FTC safeguards, HIPAA, HIPAA is a tough one because most of the doctors have made up their minds one way or another. But the FTC safeguards rules are new. Um American Bar Association just recently, I guess not recently now, but they updated their guidelines. You know, uh CPAs have to have cyber insurance uh from the Gramps Millings-Leachley Act. Um, CMMC, if you're in the Department of Defense, and all indications are that CMMC is going to be extended to the entire federal government. So if you're doing any business with the federal government, you're gonna have to have CMMC at a various level depending on the relationship.

SPEAKER_00 23:32

Sure. Yeah, are you the one that told me about the standardized book?

SPEAKER_01 23:37

Uh yeah, yeah. Bruce McCauley wrote a book called Standardized.

SPEAKER_00 23:41

So I I read that in the last two days. And I'm immediately telling my CEOs, like, hey, we need to do some of this stuff. Because uh doing the compliance as a service on as not a project, but as an ongoing piece on top of managed services, which is from what I've from that book, what I learned was it's basically cyber only the practical steps that actually make it work, not just checking a bunch of boxes.

SPEAKER_01 24:06

Which is what we care about. So what I would say is internal auditors make great compliance people. Security engineers make terrible compliance people. Okay, because the security engineer is sitting there going, what's the best solution? Okay, the compliance person says, What do I have to do to reduce business risk to demonstrate that we're doing what a reasonable business owner would do and that we're complying with whatever set of standards we need to comply with? You know, whether it's SOC2 or HIPAA or FTC safeguards or any of these stand ISO 27001, any of these standards, what do we have to do? And then when you get those two in the room together, you know, the compliance person goes say, look, if you choose one of these five products, you're going to be compliant. And then the engineer can go, okay, well, of the these five, this one's the best fit for us. And then that makes a really good connection. But it's uh I I remember a conversation I was having, and I when I realized I made that mindset shift from security to compliance, because I was talking to a vendor, and he's like, I said, Well, can you do this? He's like, Well, no. I said, Well, then I can't use you.

SPEAKER_00 25:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:29

He's like, Well, why not?

SPEAKER_00 25:31

It cuts to the quick of I think what most business owners actually care about. They want their business to be protected, they don't want liability. I mean, we've we went through two breaches in the last 18, 24 months where we had to deal with insurance. Fortunately, it was covered. Yeah, but all these things like came up, and it's like, you know, we thought we had an MSA that was covered, and we were, right? But like you don't realize the holes that you have, and just because somebody signs off on something, that doesn't mean like an insurance claim is going to be honored. But that book mentioned 44% of insurance of cyber claims are denied.

SPEAKER_01 26:07

Like denied or underpaid. It's 50 over 50% are denied or underpaid.

SPEAKER_00 26:13

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That scares you to death because one of those instances, I mean, it'll put you out of business.

SPEAKER_01 26:19

Well, yeah. And the the most common reason is somebody checked off a box that they didn't understand what it meant, you know, or they just checked off the box that's at MFA. When I send a note back to our clients, I'm like, okay, MFA check. Now they've gotten more the insurance companies have started getting more sophisticated, and there's more boxes now. But if it just says MFA, I send a note back and says we have MFA on these systems. We do not have MFA on these systems. Okay. So I tell them, like, okay, our global administrator has MFA, our domain administrator has MFA, um, but the the current user at the desktop doesn't, if that's the case. Okay, we're not doing MFA on desktop logins except for administrators. Now, if they accept that, then they come back, you're like, we told you.

unknown 27:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:13

And you accepted the policy. Um, but it's auditors, whether it's uh interns auditor or uh a standards auditor, they don't care what you do. They care what you can prove you do.

SPEAKER_00 27:26

Right. It's all what you done. If you didn't document it, it didn't happen. Correct. Your word is worthless in a court of law.

SPEAKER_01 27:32

I I I even had one, it was it was a little ridiculous. Um, an eye doctor had switched from a peel-off stickers sign in, which is perfectly okay under HIPAA. That's a perfectly legitimate way to do it, to an iPad. Okay, which is a more secure way to do it. They didn't update their documentation. So the auditor came in and goes, where's your peel-off stack? And he found a deficiency. And I had we had to respond to it. Now, fortunately, there wasn't any find or anything, but we had to respond to it to say, yeah, we switched. We hadn't the, you know, we we said that the document was under review, which was actually true, it just hadn't been signed off on by everybody, that we now used an iPad for sign-in.

SPEAKER_05 28:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:15

Yeah, it's wild. And I think those those pieces are only going to become more relevant with AI taking over a lot of things because security is gonna just it's running wild right now, it seems. So yeah. I mean, I I think there's a lot of relevance to helping owners connect dots with those things because it used to be an all HIPAA compliance or PCI or whatever it is. Three, four questions, the insurance companies had no clue. This is you know, six, eight plus years ago. Now these questionnaires are 40 some questions. Like you you have so not only are we telling clients the same thing, but now they're getting it from other vendors and other things. And huh, you know, if they're all saying the same thing, maybe we're onto something here. So I would hope that the the acceptance rate or or them listening is a little bit, you know, easier.

SPEAKER_01 29:03

I think so. And and the message I tell to them is like, look, our tools, you know, and we were selling compliance, like they're like, Well, aren't you aren't you compliant? I'm like, our tools provide the capability for you to be compliant.

SPEAKER_05 29:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:19

Okay, that's 20%. That's 15% or 25%, depending on the standard, it'll you know, vary a little bit. I said, but somebody has to be your security officer.

SPEAKER_05 29:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:30

So we have to own it. If you don't, if you don't want us to own it, who's owning it in your out in your office? Okay, and who's gonna document all these things? And then like, oh, well, I don't have time to do that. I'm billing out of $450 an hour, $500, $600, $700 an hour as an attorney. And I'm like, well, it's gonna cost you this. They're like, oh, well, that's four hours, that's four hours of my time. That's six hours of my time. Okay, yeah. I I'd rather spend that six hours you doing that and pay you this so I can go bill that.

SPEAKER_00 30:03

Yeah, the opportunity cost is there.

SPEAKER_01 30:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:06

So those are conversations.

SPEAKER_00 30:08

Yeah, I I'm excited to see where that goes in the next you know 12 to 18 months. Because yeah, it should be a lot easier to get people to get on board with those things. Um, what do you see that you might be struggling with this year? I know a lot of people like I I don't uh plan to know everything. I'm definitely no expert myself. Um, what do you struggle with? What are some challenges that you have, you know, as you kind of continue to scale?

SPEAKER_01 30:32

I think as you continue to scale, the the number one challenge is keeping your team culture, you know. Um uh Drucker said culture eat strategy for breakfast uh lunch. I don't remember breakfast or lunch, one of them, you know, and that is so true. You know, your culture is important. Um, and when we hire, we have a culture document that we send out that explains who we are, how we operate. Um and you know, it's like you know, statements about documentation, state, you know, statements about how we view it. It's not just how you document it, but what's our mindset about those things? And that's important because I'm more concerned about the mindset than the mechanics.

SPEAKER_00 31:15

Um, I can train. It's like, well, what does that mean?

SPEAKER_01 31:23

You know, so I was on the board at Toastmasters International, and you know, they have four core values integrity, respect, service, and excellence. While I was on the board, we we wrote sentences and short paragraphs about what each of those means and how we do it, because uh we're a global organization and integrity means different things in different cultures. So it's like who are we? And it's the same thing, you know. I go to respect, okay. Um, you know, we had a discussion one time about um if we show respect, does that mean we're inclusive? Or do we need to add that as a separate one? You know, which that's a great discussion to have. You know, and so I think those are discussions you have to have in your company. Um the other thing is just you know getting your your processes standardized. Okay. So now there are great tools if you use IT Glue. Um, you know, it's got the documenter, so someone can go through and just do the process and it'll capture every step, and then you can go through and review it. So you can getting documentation done is easier. AI makes getting documentation done easier. You can tell it to interview you and it'll write it up. Um if you're writing software and it's got access to the code, it can add it all actually fully document everything for you. Like and give you screenshots if you got access to the code.

unknown 32:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:53

Yeah. So so that's but those are ongoing challenges. And and I think the biggest thing is um it's something we've struggled with is when do we say no to an opportunity?

SPEAKER_04 33:10

Yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_01 33:11

Okay, and and it's not just about minimum, you know, some people like, oh, we got a minimum monthly billing or minimum number of users. Um, and and there's some there's some truth to that, you know. But I mean, I've got a five-person company I work with that we're billing three thousand dollars a month to. You know, and if I said, well, we had a 10-person minimum, you know, um, I wouldn't be doing that. And guess what? But they're they're they're actually pretty easy to deal with.

SPEAKER_00 33:40

Um, you know, you're you're probably crushing it for them too. Like they might be paying a little bit of a premium, but hey, if all their stuff is working and you guys are helping them grow.

SPEAKER_01 33:48

And they they have to do these compliance things to keep a contract they have. That's that's a very significant contract. So it's it's a small percentage of what they're gathering for that. Um but you know, those types of things, but you know I think another thing I'm just I'm personally struggling with is I'm a starter. Okay. I love starting things. And you know, I'm already like, okay, what do I what do I start next? My team is going, stop. Like, don't start. I I went to Castella Connect. Um, and now I took one of my senior engineer, Brandon, my son, Brandon, and he told me, and he wasn't, I don't think he was joking. He goes, if you buy any new software, I will kill you. And now then he came to me on day three and goes, We need this. And I'm like, Okay. But then I said, Okay, he goes, No, oh, here's the business use case. Because that that's the question he'll ask me. You know, I'll say, Well, I'm looking at this. Well, what's the business use for that? And so he he's getting that. He's like, I don't want just another tool. And so we're reducing our tool stack right now um with um with with automation. We use we're a roost partner. Um, we we love Roost. Um, we we chose them over the other competing products. Um, and so we're just doing more. He he's spending a day a week just working on Roost stuff uh because I can't afford someone full-time. Um that's cool.

SPEAKER_00 35:28

Yeah, you know, Roost is the automation tool that if you have a process, you can basically eliminate most human steps.

SPEAKER_01 35:35

Yeah, and and they've got built they've got built in. So for example, onboarding with an Office 365, my my level one tech fills out a form, and we're actually beginning to test it, giving it to the customer to fill out the form. And then we review it and we hit submit, and everything happens behind the scenes.

SPEAKER_00 35:56

That's cool. Yeah, that's gotta save a ton of time.

SPEAKER_01 35:58

Oh yeah, and and accuracy. Because it's it's the automation steps aren't subject to delusion, like the AI tool is, because you're like, here's the PowerShell script, because it's got all these PowerShell scripts and other scripting tools built in, API calls built in. So it knows exactly what it's doing.

SPEAKER_05 36:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:20

You know, um, so that's that's a big one because and now I think the next thing we'll be seeing, and this is what I'm trying to figure out is how do we start selling that to our customers?

SPEAKER_00 36:32

Well, yeah, as a service, sure. Yeah, yeah. Well, um, I want to bring it to a close here, but I I always try to ask uh what's your one big takeaway or one piece of advice that you could give that, like, man, you look back in the last you know six or twelve months, something that really just you nailed it. It really works, uh, something to kind of pay forward to others that are kind of on their own journey.

SPEAKER_01 36:54

Um, I what I would say is move towards annual pricing packages um and and make those valid. It's the it's the QuickBooks methodology.

unknown 37:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 37:06

You're switching to ARR.

SPEAKER_01 37:08

Yeah, well, if I don't I say as an annual package, no, no, like right now we sell a 2026, we call it, you know, Secure Foundation 2026 advanced cybersecurity. Um, in October, November, we'll start figuring out what are we changing for the 2027, what's gonna be the price point. But the people are on 2024 plans this year, they have to change. They can't keep that 2024 plan.

SPEAKER_00 37:34

So IT Fusion 2027 is looming, like it's it's a new year, you've got to get on board.

SPEAKER_01 37:39

And I don't know what the price is gonna be for 2027 yet, because we haven't figured out what do we because we want to add value every year. Um so that's one thing, and I said second thing is stop thinking about uh this is a big lesson I learned this year is if you lose a customer, don't worry about replacing their revenue, worry about replacing their margin.

SPEAKER_00 38:09

Oh, yeah. Yeah, because if they weren't making any money for you, who cares?

SPEAKER_01 38:14

And and that, and so we went through um this is another one from Robin Robbins. I would tell you, don't rank your customers by revenue, rank your customers by margin. Yeah, that's and look at look at your customers, and what you will find, I found it. Everyone I've talked to has found it. If you don't find it, please let me and Jimmy know, because you'll be the first. Um, that some of your largest customers are some of your worst margins.

SPEAKER_00 38:39

Yep. And vice versa. And both ways.

SPEAKER_01 38:43

And there are clients that you've got clients that you're losing money on and you don't know it.

SPEAKER_00 38:47

Yeah. Yeah, you gotta audit yourself. I mean, we're in we're in true methods, uh the group. Yeah, and and Gary, Pika, they preach that, you know, the MRR evaluator and all that. And uh yeah, I think there's there's a lot of pieces there that are super essential. But um I've really enjoyed talking to you, Matt. I think uh you're really a down-to-earth guy, and so hopefully yeah, listeners. I mean, there's a lot of tidbits there that I'll I'll try to summarize in our our show notes as well. But just for someone who maybe um really resonated with you and wants to reach out, what's the best way to get a hold or contact you?

SPEAKER_01 39:22

Yeah, my email is Matt M A T T at ITfusionTech.com. They can reach me there. Um or uh my I'm gonna give your guys my cell phone number because if somebody actually if actually someone actually calls me, I want to talk to them. And tell them you saw me on Jimmy's podcast, and then I will definitely take your call.

SPEAKER_00 39:54

All right. Well, I'll put that in the show notes too, because people are reading through as as people click on these. But yeah, that's that's gutsy, Matt. I don't know if I'd put my cell phone uh out there like that, but that that just shows your character and how much you can.

SPEAKER_01 40:05

I might regret it, but I doubt it.

SPEAKER_00 40:08

Yeah, yeah. Well, again, I I really appreciate your time, and uh yeah, maybe we'll have to have you back on. I mean, I'm I've the series has taken off a lot more than I thought. So there's there's gonna be, I think, seasons that we break up, so we'll see how that goes. Um, but yeah, we really appreciate you being on, and it's it's been a pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 40:25

All right, thanks, sir.

SPEAKER_00 40:27

You bet.